Different folks, Different Places, Different Rules, and other Game Changers

I wanted to get this out of my head before I Iost it completely… as in went nuts. No, no, no, as in I’d lose this train of thought… anyway, this all went down in THE CITY…

I recently met several people, male and female, who made me rethink both how I presented myself and what my expectations were when dating. In one case my expectations were immediately exceeded. Meaning things went ok when we met at random and although the evening ended oddly that had to do with some other folks that were around, nothing to do with me. We clicked right off the bat the second time after remaining in contact. Turns out our backgrounds were similar to a degree and she was typically the kind of person I get along with fairly quickly. Click, click, click. We had a pretty great evening and I walked away feeling pretty lucky for having met her and already knew she felt the same way. Definite mutual beneficence.

At a completely different time and place (may as well call it another universe) I met a woman, in a much more prearranged fashion, when I was in a different mood and although I thought the evening went well I didn’t deliver on her expectations and as a result got mysteriously cold shouldered for a few weeks. That was pretty perplexing and I like feedback so I persisted until I got some useful information. Also I knew she wasn’t a hardcore NYC chick where maybe I just hadn’t made the cut and unseat one of her top five guys in rotation – as one of my female bff’s cynically, yet accurately, put it.

Funny thing, in discussing this with a much younger dude (who’s still probably dated much more than I have) he imparted some pretty typical NYC wisdom to me. There are plenty more fish in the sea so if she’s unfathomable there’s no need to get caught up in whatever game she’s playing. Just roll and go? What about that girl right over there… his girlfriend concurred. Another friend within earshot had already given me the same advice and although I wasn’t looking right at him I’m sure he was nodding along vigorously. And rolling his eyes. And for other reasons making a spectacle of himself. He’s funny like that… They’re all in their mid to late 20’s. That’s significant. Then I gave him my particulars and told him I was inclined to date, not exclusively but inclined, women closer to or at my age in addition to being desirable, to me, and single ones were kinda’ hard to come by, blah, blah, blah. I keep thinking they’ll get where I’m coming from and conversations would go a lot smoother but… damn, if I think about it all the anecdotal evidence has been to the contrary… He immediately changed his response to, in that case there are no rules! We’re talking apples and oranges and I was going to have to make my own rules. This was the single best piece of information I’d heard since I’ve been dating!

So it’s actually been up to me whether I should roll and go when one or both of us is being a little too battle weary or thinks the other is running a game when they’re not. The certainty of being played is removed. In this case I persisted because that’s just me and the outcome could’ve gone either way but this time it actually went ok. Obviously the next question is, was this person worth the effort? Depends on what you want. For me there was a lot of food for thought that sprung up as a result so the takeaway trended positive. Otherwise, well, I never close a door on anybody anyway unless I see that they’re up to no good. Ya’ never know when they might be useful to you or vice-versa and really folks, sometimes no one’s trying to steam roll ya’ and it’s just bad timing. Shrug.
🙂

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41 thoughts on “Different folks, Different Places, Different Rules, and other Game Changers

  1. Thats the thing about dating in NYC… Its like the wild west when it comes to rule and how the youngins’ interpret. See, to that 20 year old , there are/is an overwhelming abundance of fish in the sea! Its like scooping up sand with your hand, when you look down, a million more grains have started to fill the sudden crater you created. To that 20yr old, there is no such thing as “gotta go get her. make it work” because he probably already put his eye on the replacement if the vibes dont jump off with the latest!! Your problem, OUR problem, is when you start pushing into that unheard of age for being single (horror of horrors to still be single at our age) and most woman are either already attached or bring a list of requirements that are unreasonable but above all else STUPID! This forces many men of wisdom to react in two seperate ways 1)accept that you are dating for the physical pleasure and by default accept that the occasional 20 year old will be a part of the menu or 2)settle for giving off the impression that you indeed meet and excede those silly a*s requirements. Like i said, MOST men. Speaking for self: I have had the moments where the menu looked like the kids value meal at McD’s AND I have had the pleasure of reminding some woman that if their list were actually reasonable and if they indeed where the catch that they have made themselves out to be… they would still not be single.

    Its been my experience that when 20yr olds are trying to determine if they are compatible sex is part of the equation. When older woman are trying to figure it out…

    Them yougins’ just dont understand!!

    1. Thanks, Frank. 🙂
      I get what you’re saying about the lengthy requirements. That reminds me of my other post on women seeking their princes, etc… It’s the same ol’ thing. I agree, this menu strategy is probably just gonna find them a guy who thinks they’re ridiculous and may end up playing them. The result is different but this is also similar to the twenty year old pick and roll game EXCEPT these women are no longer twenty, don’t have the time or inclination to be in places where they meet people all the time… etc. It’s like they only have one strategy and they use it for a lifetime. Instead of saying, they can’t find Mr. Right they should admit they don’t want to find anyone at all and take themselves out of the game, or that they’re still waiting for their prince to come, or admit to themselves that they are not willing change or relinquish some control of their lifestyles in order to accommodate someone who would want to stick around!

      Quick question, what do you mean by, “Them yougins’ just dont understand!!”? I didn’t quite follow that thought. 😉

  2. In regards to the title “Different folks, Different Places, Different Rules, and other Game Changers”…

    When dating or “eyeing” a female AND it involves a person of our age Dif Folks/places/rules are def game changers. Them youngins, all they know is that if he/she isnt to there liking, theres probably about 40 more at that same exact place to move on with. They just dont understand that for us there might be 3 more and not the 40 they have.
    Like the youngin’ you were having this discussion with, he would never understand having to take the extra 15min to decifer the signals being put out. For him, the fish are plentiful. not so much for us. Also, in his age bracket, theres a REAL GOOD chance he might have to “settle” for that one night stand with a female who is OK with that setup. Try that with a 40yr old who thinks that hers is new again because she hasnt used it in 3 months…

    What we go through, like i said…. Them youngins wouldnt understand!

    1. Ah, I get it now! 😀
      The thing I liked about this dude was he knew he didn’t know! That kind of impressed ’cause I’m always on the lookout for sharp people…
      ” Try that with a 40yr old who thinks that hers is new again because she hasnt used it in 3 months…” – bwahahahahahaha 😀

  3. ” Try that with a 40yr old who thinks that hers is new again because she hasnt used it in 3 months…”

    The sentence sure is funny, but do you really think that this is the reason why 40yr old women are more reluctant to give it up than 20 yr olds? That they pride themselves of being special? Couldn’t it be for a different reason?

    Some time ago I spent one night with a guy, no sex, just cuddling, but it was really intimate. The next morning, I could feel how he withdrew, how he was not THERE anymore, distant, unavailable. It was sad, but I was okay with it because not that much had happened.

    But the mere thought I would have to witness this kind of change in a man after having sex with him fills me with horror. How would I be able to go to work? With 40, most women will have lots of obligations: jobs, kids, elderly parents that need to be taken care of, responsibilities of all kinds. When you are surrounded by people who expect and need you to function, and you know you have almost no alone time to break down and cry, isn’t it simply wise to be very careful with your heart?

    It is not arrogance, just caution.

    1. “When you are surrounded by people who expect and need you to function, and you know you have almost no alone time to break down and cry, isn’t it simply wise to be very careful with your heart?” – I tried to explain that to a single friend once… yeah, things can get pretty out of control if you’re not on your A game with kids.

      Anyway, Jul, what did the guy say when you asked him about withdrawing? Was it you, did he have something else on his mind?

  4. Hey I wasn’t bad mouthing the practice, i was simply comparing to the more simplistic idea of dating young BUT since you did broach the subject, these are my opinions on it:
    1) I have no problem with you saying you will not sleep/ be intimate with me until we get to no each other or you feel comfortable. What i do have a problem is when woman have a fast and hard held rule that says “he wont get any for 3 months”. I personally think that it’s a little ridiculous to even have a time table attached. It may be hard for woman to understand (and I will throw myself on the stake for all men on this one) but I am 39 years old. I have had many a year in which I enjoyed the act of sexual intercourse. Granted, a relationship should not be based on sex BUT I don’t like the idea of with holding sex until YOU feel like all your qualifications have been met. One of mine is good sex. if i have to wait 3 months, you failed. For the record, i have dated before and NOT had sexual contact with that person for several months NOT because it was a rule BUT because that’s how it played out.
    2)My quote was pertaining to the act of a one night stand. Not a personal attack on you just an observation as a human being; If you are bringing your heart to a one night stand, there’s something wrong. Unfortunately, life is too often compared to but has no real connections to a ROMANTIC MOVIE! We would all love to have that slow churning, boody sweating, moans of love experience that every damsel in the flix enjoys right before the credits roll. BUT that’s not real life. I can love to have sex with you but that doesn’t mean I want to spend my life with you. As for a one night stand… copping immediate feelings pretty much guarantees that it will stay a one nighter. I could have discovered in the course of the evening that I do/did enjoy our company pre-sex but its kinda a turn off to know that the next morning your feelings were hurt. After all what was the reason for you to even go out and meet me and then “meet” me?? Having sex with me that first night was not going to make me keep coming back for more.
    3)Why are we dating?? I’m hoping to find someone I can enjoy spending time with. Woman tend to want to meet someone to get into a relationship with. There’s a big difference between meeting someone, enjoying their company, and gradually building from there AND meeting someone and attempting to fit that person into our preconceived notions of a relationship. As woman get older and they hear their bio clocks ticking and notice the wondering eye of a judgmental society focusing on them, they tend to push harder for a defined relationship instead of going with the flow. I fully understand but that doesn’t mean that I have to accept.

    The difference between us (me/you/our parents/their parents) is that we have been beat over the head with the notion that we are supposed to be married. Well guess what. Our parents were supposed to be married by the time they were 20 because till death do us part meant one of them will be gone by the time they are 55. Guess what, they are seeing the 60s, 70s, 80s… Now till death do us part is looking like a long time. Today’s youth, they figured out that they can date longer because their clocks have been adjusted into the late 80s. They are in no rush to do anything other than date and find someone as opposed to the older generation is looking for someone so they pretend to want to date.

    I was just comparing the two.

  5. Thanks for understanding, Steve.

    “Anyway, Jul, what did the guy say when you asked him about withdrawing? Was it you, did he have something else on his mind?”

    Even though it made me sad when I watched him become distant, it was exactly what I had expected to happen. So I did not ask, I just let him go. I have known him for more than 2 years, we have been flirting a lot, he sort of pursued me, and I guess he had feelings for me. I have been in love with him for quite some time, and had reached a point where I wanted to show him how much I cared, wanted to just BE with him, even if it was only once.

    I think he has many good qualities as a human being, but his life is centered around his work, and nothing else really matters. He works 14 hours or more every day, he works on weekends and during vacations. He has a FWB and treats her like a dog, lets her sit next to him 3 days in a row during weekends full of business meetings, and he behaves so neutral towards her that nobody who was not in the know would ever guess they were close. He has been living like that for the past 6 years of his life, and sometimes I think he might have forgotten what it feels like to really be in love. I guess it is the most convenient way for him, and I don`t think I am special enough or important enough for him to change that. So I simply let him know how I felt, and then let go.

    1. Sounds like he was looking for something that he didn’t find or found something he didn’t know what to do with. I can’t comment too much on the FWB thing other than to say, his FWB is not his gf therefore discretion is critical. It would be very hard for him to get any other girl if everyone knew he had an FWB. Women don’t like to share.

      I’d be really surprised if staying with you wasn’t a first step to making some changes. He may just be bored with the status quo and get a new FWB or he may decide on a fresh route. Shrug.

      You may want to ask yourself why you were attracted to someone so monumentally unavailable. If he wasn’t already telling you he was leaving that lifestyle for his own sake, why would you expect him to do it for you?

  6. Hi Steve,

    I am not sure whether this girl is just a FWB. I labeled her that because he won`t call her his GF and because he treats her in this strange way that I would never accept if I were his GF. You are right about discretion, but if 90% of the people he deals with during a business meeting already know that he is messing with that girl (including the PA that booked the double room for him and her), he has reached a point where it gets a tad ridiculous to be that discrete, don`t you think?

    You wrote that women don`t like to share. Do you think men are more comfortable with the concept of sharing?

    “You may want to ask yourself why you were attracted to someone so monumentally unavailable.”

    In his essays on love, Stendhal wrote that it takes 2 elements to fall in love with somebody: admiration and hope. The admiration part was there from the beginning, because he is a highly intelligent, hard working guy with a great sense of humour. And it was he who provided the hope part, by flirting with me, giving me compliments and sometimes even little presents etc.. Had he not done that, I don’t think I would have fallen for him. I would have put him in the “some guy that is not interested in the type of woman that I am” category, and that would have been the end of story.

    “If he wasn’t already telling you he was leaving that lifestyle for his own sake, why would you expect him to do it for you?”

    I did not expect him to leave that lifestyle for me. That is why I was not surprised about his distant behaviour in the morning, and why I did not ask any questions. I am pretty sure he would have been able to go on with this game of teasing and flirting forever. But it was starting to hurt me, and I had trouble concentrating on my job, so I wanted to get out of this situation. I figured it would be best to let him know how I feel, to express myself once to get closure and then move on. And that’s what I did. Of course, had he been a little less wishy-washy about it, I might have changed my mind and might have tried to find out if we had potential as a couple. But he was wishy-washy, and I was fed up with his mixed signals, so spending the night at his place was my way of saying goodbye to this dream and move on.

    1. I can only speak for myself in that I’m pretty selfish on the other hand I know guys who’ll offer up their FWB’s to help a buddy out.
      Speaking only for myself I don’t find a guy that works 14 hour days and on the weekends for years at a time admirable unless he’s spending all that time feeding starving kids in Africa or something like that. If he’s not then he’s just sacrificing a normal (yeah, I used that word) social life to exclusively chase the almighty dollar and he mixed in some physical relief on the side. Yeah, she just sounds like an FWB. Dunno what the rest of his game was since everyone else knew. Maybe he was concerned about showing favoritism to his booty call and went too far the other way. Shrug. I wonder how many other women he had going… moot point now because… you broke the spell and exited gracefully. Well done! 🙂

  7. I missed this thread entirely. I’d like to say off the bat that THIS is what it’s all about, IMO when it comes to blogging. Community. The ability to get down to the nitty-gritty, or at least to APPROACH the nitty-grity with attempts to be mutually useful to each other and contribute concepts that may be diametrically opposed, yet are offered honestly and with the best of intentions.

    There’s lots of excellent material in these comments. On the topic of older women, the only reason to specifically strive to date them is some sort of natural aversion to younger women.. I mean WAY younger. My tastes these days run around the 26-28 range. Back in the day, like in college, my taste was younger than I am or 29 and up. Women become understandably confused between 17 and 29 with what I like to call “politics”. They want to achieve something in their lives that the movies have told them they can have, yet they don’t know how exactly to go about getting it, so you end up not getting what you’re supposed to get for myriad RETARDED reasons.

    Once a gal makes it to around 28, she becomes more realistic and calms down. She doesn’t believe in Santa or The Easter Bunny anymore and she’s either been jaded by how guys have treated her or she’s a freer and more openly loving person now because she has her own career, her own money, her own place and she’s not dependent on the dream she grew up with of latching on to some guy to make her life wonderful. Either way, her decisions are based on a better grasp of reality than they were before she gained enough life experience to achieve her changeover.

    This is what I liked about older women when I was younger. You could TRUST what they were basing their decisions on. Younger chicks might not hook up with you because you didn’t have a car, or didn’t have the right car, or weren’t wearing a gold chain or whatever indicated to her that if she latched on to you, she wouldn’t be able to build the life she wanted in the future. As much as you could tell she wanted you physically RIGHT NOW, she wasn’t going to go for it for stupid reasons. Now that y’all have me thinking about this, it’s one of the most disgusting aspects of the game, waiting for chicks to get their minds right so you can have an authentic relationship to them whether that includes sexuality, intimacy or “just” friendship.

    Dating older women could also imply that you find some particular value in women of a certain age. I personally don’t. Chicks are Chicks. If a chick is cool as hell at 23, she’s going to get the text from me to see what she’s doing before a chick that’s 39 and just as retarded as she was when she was 18. I derive value from cool people, period. Also, depending on what I do with my facial hair, people perceive me as being under 21, so I don’t have any problems attracting younger chicks, which is what keeps a lot of guys out of the game.. They just can’t pull it off. None of the chicks are interested in them anymore, so they have no choice but to stick to the chicks that will throw them an interested glance.

    The problem that women have with one night stands is well illustrated here as well. To paraphrase Frank, If you’re bringing your heart to a ONS, you’re making a BIG. *******. MISTAKE!.

    Men want to get TO the action while women want the action to be the beginning of something “special”. I remember one of the *rare* times that I hooked up with a chick that was over 35 that she accused me of being “fast”. Not fast as in short amount of time laying on top of her, but seemingly hurrying towards completion of the act. At the time, I was like WTF is this chick talking about? I’m doing what I do, which is all that I EVER do! 😀 Years later, I realized what she was talking about. For me, our physical attraction meant that I was going to hit it. For her, our physical attraction meant that we were going to lay up in each other’s arms, all lovey-dovey like in Jul’s story about cuddling with no sex and then she’s actually SURPRISED that he withdrew from her.

    Sometimes, you get to the top of a mountain and you realize that it never WAS a mountain to begin with. You THOUGHT it was, but it actually wasn’t. Imagine the girl with great DSLs that you finally got alone and you finally got the action going and then you were like “Damn. This ish is WACK! Has this chick ever DONE THIS BEFORE? :/” It has to be the same feeling when you get in a situation where two consenting adults are alone with each other and able to express their deepest feelings and perhaps longings for each other and all she wants is to hold you close for a night like y’all are a couple of Eskimos trying not to freeze to death. GEEEEET THE *** OUTTA HERE! 😀 That went out of style in Elementary School. (SIDE NOTE: That was funny as hell when we were all hanging out the other day and I was talking about something dealing with chicks and said Elementary School and the rest of y’all started looking around at each other like “Did he say.. ELEMENTARY SCHOOL? :O” HAHAHAHAHA)

    So, yeah, for guys, the ONS is the chance when they’re FINALLY able to physically express themselves to a gal that they’ve ****** a thousand and one times in their minds already. For gals, the ONS is often their portal to some kind of new emotional connection with a guy \o/ It’s interestingly similar to the actual act of sex. Once guys do their thing, the sex is *OVER*! 😀 Once gals do theirs, that’s when they START becoming more attached to you and settle in to head for the first of what they hope/intend to be many more climaxes. The biological systems don’t naturally work together. If you don’t know (or don’t care) as a guy what she’s expecting “after the fact”, she’s going to perceive you as “Not much of a lover”, when your mindset a minute after the fact is either “That was good. Wonder if the game’s on yet? :D” or “zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz”.

  8. Bill!
    I agree, a cool woman at any age is cool. PERIOD. I just figured women in their mid 30’s and older wouldn’t be caught up in this stuff so there’d be an abundance of suitable matches. They’re still in the same ratio as the young’uns but the true gems standout even more due to the much smaller pool so they can easily command more time and effort. Or so they think.

    Bill, “people perceive me as being under 21” – Uh hu, and when I shave I look like I’m prepubescent and I once saw a woman tickle Frank under his chin, ask him if he was lost, and offer him a lollipop. Whatevs! 😀

  9. Hi Bill,

    for some reason (sloppy reading?) you wrote that I was surprised that the guy withdrew from me. To quote myself:

    “I did not expect him to leave that lifestyle for me. That is why I was not surprised about his distant behaviour in the morning, and why I did not ask any questions.”

    What surprises me is your harsh reaction to what I wrote. You make it sound as if I had been unfair, as if I had somehow harmed this man or taken away his (or your?) God-given right to have sex with every woman he feels physically attracted to.

    So let me get this straight:
    When I asked him to meet me and talk things over, my main goal was to reach a kind of agreement that would enable me to see him in the office every day and still do my work with the 100% accuracy and efficiency that everybody expects from me. Having sex with him and pretending to be casual about it would have caused me a lot of pain, and that was not what I wanted. Because he did all sorts of strange things and was so unpredictable (for some weird reason, he always tried to trap me in situations where I would have to meet his FWB, something I don`t understand to the present day) there were days when I was just a nervous wreck at work. I always managed to weasel out of these situations, but I was tired of having to calculate his next move and then my next move. All the energy this cost me I would have preferred to invest in getting promoted instead…..
    A ONS might have been on his agenda, but it certainly never was a part of my plan.
    I merely explained to him in great detail how much I felt for him, how much I cared, and asked him to stop pursuing me because it was my impression that what we wanted from each other was not the same.
    I never had a ONS in my life, and I am not familiar with ONS-etiquette. However, I do know that men tend to feel frustrated when they get the impression that sex is available and then they don`t get any. All I wanted was a hug to get closure to this very emotional discussion. But because I respect the fact that some people get aroused more quickly than others, I asked him if it was okay to hug when that was all that was going to happen. He could have said no. I would have left without a complaint. But he said yes. Only then did I touch him. And it was HE who suggested that I should stay, and we should sleep in the same bed. I offered to leave, twice. Again I said, won`t this be frustrating, just sleeping together and no sex? And he said, no, it`s okay.
    Maybe he was hoping I would change my mind, because so many women say one thing and then do another. But I usually say what I mean and then do what I say. I am not responsible for the things other women do or say. And he had been working with me for nearly 2,5 years, so there is a fair chance he knew me well enough.

    I don`t understand your reaction to my story at all, Bill. Isn’t it funny how different it is from Steve’s? Why do you feel the need to make fun of something or drag something down that is so important to me? He probably would have liked to have an affair. I was absolutely sure that an affair was not what I wanted. So I gave him what I could give under the circumstances, and he took what he could get under the circumstances.

    When he woke up the next morning, the first thing he said to me was: “So you`re not depressed, sad or angry?” THAT surprised me, because I had no idea why I should feel like that, and when I told him so, he gave me two thumps up. Does that sound to you as if he was pissed that not more had happened?

    It may be hard for you to understand, but there are other ways to express deep feelings and longing for each other than just sex. I am not even sure about the depth of his feelings. I am only sure about mine, and I wanted to express them THE WAY I WANTED TO (not the way you or anybody else would have preferred). I admit the selfishness of this act, but in the two years that led up to this night, he had acted pretty selfish on many occasions too, so I refuse to take the blame for that.

    1. I have to say that I’ve lost my entire handle on this thread. 🙂 I just saw this comment last night and I clearly responded to a comment that occured after it. I didn’t ignore this, I just never saw it.

      As far as a guy trying to get a gal to meet his FWB, he’s clearly trying to set up a threesome.

      As far as asking a guy not to pursue you, that’s only going to happen if the guy’s more interested in your happiness than his, which is rare. I just had a conversation like that a couple of nights ago. A friend of mine told me she didn’t take my interest in her seriously. My response was to ask her if I should stop kissing her (not in real-time, in general). She didn’t want me to stop, but if she had said that’s what she wanted, I would have stopped, because all I want is for her to be happy. If it makes her happy for me to kiss her and I FEEL like kissing her, I will. If it makes her feel confused or uncomfortable, then I won’t. Case closed.

      Of course he offered for you to stay and sleep in the same bed. Otherwise, he doesn’t have any chances to change your mind and get on. Basics.

      As far as making fun and dragging down, I don’t derive any particular pleasure from either one. I try to call it as I see it and make my statements based on probabilities derived from my personal experiences and experiences of friends of mine. I wouldn’t make any direct assumptions about the motives or actions of any gals I didn’t know personally from hanging out with IRL, because anything’s possible. The only thing I know for sure is that the game is for guys to get gals to get over whatever bullshit obstacles they have to giving it up. It’s not a reflection on the gals at all. That would be like blaming a deer for a hunter shooting it. That’s not how the game works. The deer walks and gets shot. The hunter shoots it. In order to get a better shot at the deer, the hunter ACTS AS IF he’s not going to shoot it. Basics.

      He’s not supposed to sound upset that nothing happened. He’s supposed to sound like it’s cool so you keep coming back until he gets laid. Basics.

      I never said that sex was a way to express deep feelings and longing for each other. 🙂 People are turned on by other people and get horny and want to ****. That’s how it goes.

      All I’m saying about ANY situation where a guy that wants to screw a gal gets to lay around all night with the gal he wants to screw is that if he could have finagled it, he would have gotten some. It’s not an indictment of your personality, demeanor or resolve. It actually has nothing at all to do with you. He was either skillfull enough to get some from you or he wasn’t. I understand why you took this personally, but there’s nothing personal about it. I’m sure a football could take it personally that someone kicked it downfield in order to score a field goal in football. I would understand that, but it doesn’t make any sense.

      Sex is about attraction, not love. Guys pretend it’s about love to get gals to lay down. Whatever this guy’s feelings were or weren’t, his goal was to get some, or else he would have invited a different gal over. I didn’t make the game up, I’m just explaining it. I know women like to believe that a guy wants to have sex with them because of some deep connection whatever, but most of the time, it’s pure lust. If that weren’t the case, fat & ugly girls would be getting laid in droves instead of sitting around lonely in their apartments eating Haagen-Dazs ice cream.

      Anyway, I’m happy for you that you stuck to your guns and you feel good about what happened that evening. It’s too bad for him that he couldn’t figure out how to make it happen, but he’s not a friend of mine, so I really don’t give a ****.

  10. Hey Jul,
    I want to make a quick comment before taking a step back.

    “…for some weird reason, he always tried to trap me in situations where I would have to meet his FWB” – This happened to a female friend of mine!!!

    I’m not sure why, and I mean this half jokingly, but some guys get themselves in a jam where they feel like they have to choose between women so they contrive to mash them together so they can fight it out for his attention. Or maybe they’re supposed to merge themselves into one uber woman with everything that he wants. As if that kind of woman would even want to stay with him. Yeah, that’s freaking nutty.

  11. Hi Steve,

    thanks for the info! Yes, that is pretty close to one of my theories. Maybe he enjoyed the thought of us gossiping about him or even fight over him. Whatever it was, I doubt that he had my best interests at heart. Maybe he was just acting on instinct or something. Of course I would never object to meeting a co-workers spouse. But why should I invest time meeting someone who he himself described to me as “I enjoy her company, but I can not imagine to spend the rest of my life with her”? (Towards the rest of the staff, he pretends to be single anyway.)

    And remember what I wrote about how she let`s him treat her? How she sits next to him through a full weekend and watches him do his job, and he rarely even talks to her? That can only mean

    a) she has nothing better to do during weekends = she is boring.
    b) she does this because she thinks he is some kind of hero and worships him = she is boring.
    c) she does not care how he treats her as long as he spends money on her = she is a calculating bitch.

    So no matter if it is a, b or c (or maybe a combination of a + c = a boring bitch) I don`t see any reason why I should spend time with her. And I never saw any reason why I should fight with her over him. What I would have wanted most from him (intimacy, being close), she obviously does not have it either.

  12. I thought you don`t pretend to be in relationships, since “the Kid doesn`t date”? 😉

    Fortunately, there are different styles of love and not all guys have the same style, see here:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_styles

    I am mostly storge, with a little eros, agape and pragma.
    I guess you, Bill, are 80% ludus and 20% eros.
    But I doubt very much that Steve would consider this an accurate description of his love style….

    1. haha I’m never talkin’ ’bout The Kid! 😀 .. I’m always talking about average Joes. 🙂

      I was merely saying that women default to saying that a guy was pretending to be single when he has a girlfriend and other chicks on the side. Meanwhile, the truth of the matter is that those guys are ALWAYS single and tell calculated stories to some women in order to lock them down. He knows damned well that she’s only ONE of his chicks, coughTigerWoodscough, but SHE doesn’t know that.

      Steve’s “love style”, as you put it, is clearly different as he’s still looking for that Needle In A Haystack female that’s worth committing to. 🙂

  13. Jeebus this is like watching a bad episode of Springer.

    I think taking advice from each other is only going to exasperate your situations.

  14. Dan, I disagree solely because this is a discussion not an advice session per se. Analysis of how we go through life and what we want to get out of it. Food for thought albeit in a very narrow topic that means a lot to most folks. Or at least we all have something we can say about it. See your own comment. I’ve met 75% of the people that respond here and you’re the only married responder on this blog as far as I know. You lucked out (I was there and think it was the mustache and the fancy French last name, lol) and you’re satisfied with your current situation. Put it another way, you’ve already won at Baltusrol and have retired while the rest of us are still practicing our golf swings over at the driving range! 🙂

    Some folks prefer the driving range any old way and some want to try to win the cup and some want to oscillate between both and keep things moving – even if they never get great at it either way.

    Jul, I would say that I’m Eros, Storge, Agape and some amount of Mania. Depending on the minute. lol and trending towards Ludus because there doesn’t seem to be much win going on in the other categories at the moment. See my first post. There’s no satisfaction in misconnecting. Take a step back and all you have is a game that can be honed and the satisfaction of doing so.

    Pragma just leaves me cold, pun intended, but I do like to feel like I’ve made a conscious decision to be with someone, not that I was driven by potentially unhealthy subconscious needs. A feeling of control. So, no, I am not a big mushbox all the time and am less so daily. I am dealing with my current reality, that’s all.

    This all gave me a great idea for another post… that’s completely unrelated. 😀

  15. Steve, I hear what you’re saying Steve but I disagree with the summation that I lucked out. Maybe I lucked out in meeting an amazing woman but everyone at that job met her too. And quite a few were interested in her. So how did I end up with her? For one thing, I’m the only white guy she’s ever dated or considered dating. My wife and I discussed this many times in depth and it was surmised that my refusal to play games was what won her over. I called when I wanted to call without some worries about appearing too eager. She said the lack of bullshit was immensely refreshing and in turn allowed her to let down her guard and be herself. She says the one thing I gave her that no one ever did was the freedom and safety to be herself without worrying about being judged.

    I gave her me, 100%: the bad and the good. That and my feet. She loved my feet in sandals. 😛 I never saw the benefit of trying to be the perfect me and hiding aspects of myself that aren’t too endearing. The girl would discover those traits sooner or later, right? Better to not waste anyone’s time and be myself from the get-go. Then there are no misconceptions about motives for staying in the relationship.

    I had a long post typed out but I decided to delete it. Don’t think many of your readers would have liked what I had to say anyway. 😛

    Like WOPR said, “The only winning move is not to play.” Then again, there are some who believe that not playing a game is a game in and of itself.

    Whatever…just remember: the only common aspect of all your failed relationships is you. 😉

  16. Dan. Dan. DAN. I stand by my original statement. 🙂
    You lucked out. There are plenty of women who are looking for something specific and they will not take the time to get to know you if they don’t immediately see it. You lucked out because you caught her at the right time. IF you’d caught her earlier, before she was burned out, you might not have been on the radar! You lucked out because I was just starting to go through my divorce at the time! You lucked out because she has a foot fetish and she noticed you don’t wear black socks with your sandals! 😀

    And don’t forget you two met when we worked at a teeny-weeny company where even most of the young guys were married or on their way there. Once again, You lucked out! And neither of you was in a committed, monogamous, relationship at the time? And you both wanted the same thing… and your not ugly!?!? Mazeltov! Bro, I’m not saying it’s fate, I’m just saying You lucked out! Don’t take it for granted or expect everyone else to have that kind of success. 🙂 Or even to desire it for that matter.

    “The only winning move is not to play.” – That’s true if you have infinite patience and no real interest in trying to ensure a desirable outcome… we should really play chess for money someday… me, I like to work at and make my own breaks. I don’t believe in luck but I do believe in creating an environment where the opportunities I desire are more likely to manifest. Besides, anytime I approach something passively it just seems to fail.

    Now read Friendly Persons comments here. This is a guy like you and me except he’s not lucky and he’s clueless.

    “I never saw the benefit of trying to be the perfect me and hiding aspects of myself that aren’t too endearing. The girl would discover those traits sooner or later, right?”, absolutely agree! If both of you want to stick around and really get to know one another, faking it at the get go is not the way. People that roll that way are looking for something other than what you were.

    Jeebus, indeed! 😀

  17. Again, luck has nothing to do with it! You suggest that I lucked out because all the guys there were in/going through relationships. As if to say that had anyone of them, including yourself, not been going through something, I would have had to compete against any or all of you for my wife.

    That’s a bit arrogant in that it suggests that I was a “last resort” because I was the only guy available and that had any one of you been available, my wife would have been with them instead.

    Hate to tear down the fantasy world but that perception is a stark contrast to my wife’s summation that I was actually the only desirable guy at our job and in reality, none of you actually had a shot even if you had all been single, wealthy, and half as handsome as me. 😉 She didn’t consider me because I was the only available guy. She considered me because she liked my feet, said I had an uncharacteristically plump butt for a white guy, and because when asked about the Amano golf outing and whether or not I would play, I responded very poignantly, “Hell no. Golf is for rich white guys.” Oh, that and I didn’t treat her like a piece of meat, drool and stare every time she walked by, actually listened to her when she spoke, and we had a lot of the same interests from Monty Python to Creole/Cajun cuisine and culture to an affinity for classical dissonance.

    I prefer to believe that I had been in the proper frame of mind for when my wife came along. I wasn’t serial dating or trying to play the numbers in a “Well the more I date, the more likely I’ll be to find the woman I want.” I wasn’t having ONS’s at 30 years old in some mouth-breathing attempt to satiate carnal impulses or through an insecure fear of being alone but also of being rejected. And let’s be honest – one or two ONS is a nice escape. Repeated ONS’s is a serious psychological problem having to do with fear of rejection and an inability to commit. I have greater self control than that. I simply was accepting of the fact that forcing the issue would never work and I just need to live my life, work on the things I CAN control (ie. myself), and be ready when the right woman actually did come along.

    It’s funny to me how there are many folks on this blog who point the finger at the other person when a relationship fails or a date goes wrong. “She’s crazy.” or “He’s crazy.” or “She has unrealistic expectations.” It’s total displacement. Either the bearer of these statements completely sucks at choosing potential mates or he/she has never considered the tougher road of slowing the hell down, getting to know yourself *REALLY* (we all know it’s important to know yourself but not many people actually take the time to do it in a brutally honest fashion), and being a bit more selective in the dating process or *shock of all shocks* not dating at all for a little while! Had I been in one or two relationships, with girl drama, had to lie or play some silly little game in order to hide what was currently going on in my life to make myself seem more available to her, she would have seen right through that crap and never given me the time of day. There was nothing more that I wanted than a meaningful relationship with my “soulmate”. I wanted that desirable outcome. But I knew that trying to force the issue over the years was only going to make me settle or compromise or dilute my wants with a stream of meaningless relationships with women I was wasting my time with in hopes I would find what I was looking for.

    And it’s fine if some folks don’t desire a meaningful relationship or monogamy. But if that’s the case, then why the hell talk about it? Why complain about failed relationships or bad dates? If you don’t want a successful monogamous relationship, then you’re ordering from a one-item menu by choice and have no right to complain – or at least be taken seriously if you do – when you’re not happy with what you’re eating.

    Some folks say men are anti-monogamous by nature. I call bullshit. That’s an obsolete male impulse from 100,000 years ago. We’ve evolved. People need people. Whether it’s an inability to discern love from lust, mental blocks which prevent long term intimate connections with members of the opposite sex, or even if it’s a glaring acknowledgment of a desire to meet people for meaningless sex rather than a relationship, that desire can and will change over time but usually these people are too late and the rest of their days are filled with regret. Because whether it’s polygamy, bigamy, polyandry, monandry, whatever – it’s still a desire to connect with another person on an intimate level. The only thing that’s different is the capacity.

    Also, my wife WAS in a relationship at the time and living with a guy. Had been for almost 4 years. So again, your suggestion that I lucked out and things might be different had all the guys not been in relationships is irrelevant. Because she was in one too and there was only one guy in that office she even remotely considered changing her situation for: me. It wasn’t anyone else’s lack of availability that resulted in me being with her, it was that no one else ever had a shot in the first place. 😉

    To make a long story short, we went through some shit before we were able to proceed with our relationship unfettered. Between the guy she was living with, the racial aspect, and a lot of other issues which have no place on this blog. Hell, I had to quit smoking to get her to even start dating me (which I did cold turkey). When we got engaged, I sold my Ducati in order to buy her a ring. I haven’t ridden in over 2 years. Some folks might say, “I’d never give up something I love so much – she needs to accept it.” But I’ve been married 1 month shy of 3 years now and have a beautiful 5 month old baby boy. Life couldn’t be better. And to think some folks would actually sacrifice that for the selfish desire to smoke and ride a motorcycle, metaphorically speaking? Hell, I don’t have the time (or desire) to ride now even if I did. I find that spending time with my wife and son is far more rewarding and pleasurable than riding or living the single promiscuous life ever was. How many folks are willing to sacrifice or change themselves in order to get what they want? I see a lot of finger pointing and not a whole lot of, “Hmm, maybe I’m the problem” self-realizations. But hey…keep banging that head against the wall and expecting different results.

    That’s not luck, that’s work. That’s dedication and perseverance. That’s being ready to seize an opportunity when it presents itself by not hindering yourself being in meaningless relationships which do nothing but serve to pass the time. That’s not splitting at the first sign of difficulty. That’s accepting each others flaws because we know that we have flaws of our own. That’s self-awareness. That’s letting go of some farcical exaggerated and overinflated self-image and realizing who you really are and being willing to better yourself, accept your flaws, and at the same time not pass judgment on the other person for their flaws. Oh, and consider the distinct possibility that you may need to change some things about yourself. It’s total, 100% acceptance and honesty. Not an easy thing to do.

    Even harder to do from the beginning when you have absolutely no reason to. That’s the whole concept behind not playing any games.

    So yeah, I disagree. 😛

    PS: I’m a bit confused how you can say I was lucky. Repeatedly. And a few paragraphs later say that you don’t believe in luck. There’s something telling in that which I think warrants a deeper analysis on your part. 😉

  18. Dan, great post! I smiled, I laughed, it made me think, I felt insulted – Just like the good old days!!! 😀

    Dude. I wasn’t saying you were a “last resort” but your availability is likely a part of what made you attractive whether it was a conscious thought or not. Believing otherwise is a fantasy. Although a nice one and not uncommon.

    You’re correct, sometimes people are going about what they really want the wrong way and that leads to a lot of churn… and collateral damage. More on that later.

    As for luck, I don’t believe in waiting on luck when there’s a chance that if I apply some effort/work I’ll be a lot closer to my goals. That might mean getting my head straight, dumping some lazy habit, whatever. I’m sure we agree on that. 🙂

    I honestly don’t know that I’m actively looking for a “soulmate” so much as a real partnership. People fall into a lot of grades between being acquaintances and being a partner and I’m willing to take the time to find out how and where we fit with any and everybody I meet. I like people, I like being a good friend and making new ones. I also cut people a break when things don’t go right and expect the same in return where others are rapidly running through a checklist and looking for points of failure. I try to roll with integrity and loyalty to the people I care about. All the time. PERIOD. While that’s not sexy it’s what I brung.

    I don’t want to get into the male monogamy thing too deeply other than to say that it’s not everyone’s goal, or within there capabilities. Through a variety of people I met this year I’ve kinda learned quite a bit about myself and my own limitations. Mostly, I can’t live a life where I’m plotting and shuffling people around in my head like they’re cards. That mess would keep me up at night because I have this thing about using people and being used. Some would call it a career limitation as well…

    For the record I do equate a “soulmate” relationship with monogamy. One stop shopping. On the other hand I have some great relationships with women that I can’t imagine living without and would not give up for anyone. As for th rest I have no need to stand in judgment on anybody else and what they choose to do so long as they aren’t drawing other people in merely to hurt them or take from them. “First do no harm…” is pretty much the rule of Steve. 😀

    1. I’m not getting involved in this exchange AT. ALL. haha but guys don’t like to believe that luck is involved in anything they do. They like to believe that they created the circumstances and commandeered everything they currently have.

      It’s just not true.

      If I had been born to different parents, my life would be different. If I had lived in a different city, my life would be different. If I had had a different skillset or profession, my life would be different.

      What we do for ourselves is based on the luck of the draw that put us in position to be able to reap the benefits.

      1. You involved yourself the very next word you typed after “AT. ALL.”

        Luck is like religion. It’s a smile on a dog. It’s a totally farcical concept that people subscribe to, to make them explain away the seemingly miraculous. Luck is horseshit. Luck is a 4-leaf clover or a rabbit’s foot or whatever arbitrary object you choose to explain the unexplainable.

        It’s nothing but pure coincidence. Coincidence that we were working at the same place at the same time. What transpired after that was not “luck” or “fate” or “cupid” or any of that other mumbo jumbo. What transpired after we both met was chemistry and desire and conscious decisions based on those things. If either one of us did not return the others’ interest, then what? I’m sorry but luck is a crutch. Here’s an experiment – shit in one hand and put luck in the other and see which one fills up first.

        I believe in coincidence but also being in the proper frame of mind to capitalize on any opportunity which comes my way. So while the meeting of my wife was pure coincidence, my life at that point was entirely of my choosing. I was single and not dating because I don’t believe in bogging myself down with meaningless relationships. If there is no future in a relationship, I end it. Life is too short for two people to waste each others’ time. And so being single and adamantly aware of what type of person and what type of relationship I wanted were all in my control and of my doing and resulted in me being able to seize the opportunity that was before me – my wife.

        People often pine about “the one that got away”. More bullshit. You either take advantage of your opportunities or you don’t. And those who talk about “the one that got away” are people who were unable to recognize that opportunity. Grass is Greener syndrome. Some guys are always looking for the Next Big Thing and always think they can do a little better than the last girl. It’s a red herring. It’s an overinflated and overexaggerated ego. The only thing that gets you is jumping from fleeting relationship to fleeting relationship and writing about it on a blog the rest of your life to some phantom audience you think is probably twice the size that it actually is. Writing about life instead of living it.

        Your examples “If I was born to different parents my life would be different” has nothing to do with luck. By suggesting it is, you are saying your actual situation was [b]unlucky[/b] and if things were different you would have been lucky and, I dunno, been born to a wealthy doctor that does surgery on crotches.

        Luck has nothing to do with how different your life would be if you lived in a different city. That’s not luck, that’s just…ummm…the simple truth that your life would be different if you lived in a different city. That’s like saying, “The sky would not be blue if it weren’t blue.” It’s a redundant statement that actually means nothing.

        Luck has nothing to do with how your life turned out in regards to your profession. Luck didn’t MAKE you a journalblogavideo person thing. [b]YOU[/b] made those choices along the way. You could have made the conscious decision to become a crotch surgeon like your aforementioned fantasy father but you didn’t. You chose to get into and continue the career you are currently in. That’s not luck, that’s you living out your life based on the decisions you’ve made.

        Again. Horseshit. Luck doesn’t thrust you into some job resulting in you being there 50 years later. I’ve been a bagger for A&P in my youth, a carpenter, a network admin for Volvo, a systems builder for Amano, and am currently a Programmer for a medical devices manufacturer. All of them are distinctly different careers which I chose to pursue. “Luck” didn’t put me in any of those situations. I made a conscious decision to do each and every one and took the necessary steps to ensure that I was able to perform as the title dictated.

        Luck isn’t even stepping in dogshit. That’s coincidence. Every action is explainable. A dog ate some food. His owner took him for a walk. He didn’t already smell a canine scent on that area of grass so he shit there. You came along a few hours later on your way to work, crossing the patch of grass between the sidewalk and the road to get in your car parked on that side of the street, and stepping in the dogshit.

        Shit man, you can even look up the definition for “luck”. The very first definition that comes up is “the force that seems to operate for good or ill in a person’s life”. Force? What is this, The Return of the fucking Jedi? What’s next, we’re going to start believing in ghost and goblins and boogeymen and the Grinch and Jewish zombies that were their own father (sorry Jesus)? C’mon man, this is the real world here. Not a Dr. Seuss book. There are no “forces” or “auras” or metaphysical spooky father figures that have some guiding hand in every person’s life. There’s just you and everybody else. And what happens to each of us and the lives we live are based on nothing more than coincidences and the choices we make at any given time.

        In the words of Frank Zappa, “Who you jivin’ with that cosmic debris? Reality is what it is, not what you want it to be.”

        1. Coincidence (pronounced Koh-in-si-duhns)

          origin: 1595-1605; coincid(ent), -ence

          1. a striking occurance of two or more events at one time apparently by mere chance.

          2. the condition or fact of coinciding.

          Synonyms: accident, *LUCK*, *fate*, *CHANCE*.

          So, by mere definition, the fact that the two of you were available and looking at the same time PLUS happen to have qualities that each were looking for… Coincidence/Luck however you choose to phrase it it was pure chance. Unless of course she happens to be the very first person you dated (and vice versa) in which case that would be fate. Oh wait…

          1. Thank You. 🙂

            By writing “It’s nothing but pure coincidence. Coincidence that we were working at the same place at the same time. What transpired after that was not “luck” or “fate” or “cupid” or any of that other mumbo jumbo. What transpired after we both met was chemistry and desire and conscious decisions based on those things.”, he’s TALKING ABOUT *LUCK*! 😀

            What do you think coincidence IS? Something that both of y’all PLANNED? haha Nope. It’s LUCK. If either of you had worked somewhere else, no relationship. If either of you had been fired before the day y’all decided to kick it, no relationship. If the next man had scooped her before you got to rap to her, no relationship. I don’t feel like reading back through all this to find out if he said she HAD a boyfriend when he first met her, but if that’s the case, if that guy doesn’t release her, NO relationship. If she lived in another state or country, NO relationship, and on and on and on and on.

            Luck is an integral factor in ANY situation because there’s no way you could have personally created the circumstances that were handed to you by luck or fate or The Gods or God or whatever you want to call it.

            I stumbled onto this conversation by LUCK, because Steve happens to write a blog and I checked it out and his homeboy posted a comment on it. I have no control over Steve creating blogs or his friend putting their personal business in the streets, so that’s PURE. LUCK.

            People that think they created their own circumstances when they really had no control over them are the first ones to go “WHA HAPPEN?” when the game changes ‘without their permssion’.

            1. We just differ in our perceptions of the concept of luck. I have much more of a rationalist view of it, chalking it up as nothing more than probability taken personally.

              When someone’s “game changes without their permission” that’s not luck or coincidence either. That’s complacency.

              1. From Merriam-Webster
                Entry: ra·tio·nal·ism
                Pronunciation: \ˈrash-nə-ˌli-zəm, ˈra-shə-nə-ˌli-\
                Function: noun
                Date: 1827
                1 : reliance on reason as the basis for establishment of religious truth
                2 a : a theory that reason is in itself a source of knowledge superior to and independent of sense perceptions b : a view that reason and experience rather than the nonrational are the fundamental criteria in the solution of problems.

                Leveraging the poetry of the erudite Donald Rumsfeld:
                As we know,
                There are known knowns.
                There are things we know we know.
                We also know
                There are known unknowns.
                That is to say
                We know there are some things
                We do not know.
                But there are also unknown unknowns,
                The ones we don’t know
                We don’t know.

                “When someone’s ‘game changes without their permission’ that’s not luck or coincidence either. That’s complacency.”

                Dude, everyone has their own agenda. There’s always the risk that someone else’s goals may unexpectedly take a higher priority than the goals of the pair. That’s not complacency, that’s a fact of life. Life changes and rolls on with or without us. People change, learn, and grow. Every hour, minute, second. Who you are with today is not who you will be with tomorrow. What we needed yesterday may not be what we need tomorrow.

                People pair up for a variety of reasons but one of the conscious beliefs is that they can achieve greater things together than apart. If one of the partners stops believing this is possible does it mean the other became complacent or made an error? Or that the dissenting partner found what they think is a better path to realizing their dreams? That risk is always there. How people choose to handle that kind of event is really key but no matter what, none of us can be all of what our partners need.

                Control is an illusion. Learn or churn.

                I smell a rational failure to recognize we are different people from different times and places with common and conflicting goals. In other words, unique. Or unique enough. Which isn’t to say we haven’t had common dating (mating?) experiences, but the lessons from those experiences can vary significantly, as the responses here have underscored, by the context in which we have them.

                Context is key.
                We can all make any assertion we like but we’d better damn well have a handle on where and when it applies else it’s just noise.

                I appreciate that your comments come from a different frame and that’s really cool and appreciated. None of us can ever learn if we merely talk to people who do and think exactly as we do.

                Does rationalism, as you apply it, give you a black and white perception of relationships or is it the context of your singular experiences?
                Should I infer that in your world people are either paired, standing around waiting to be paired, or they’re jumping from relationship to relationship looking for the next big thing, to paraphrase? That last is a huge leap from the first two and there’s a whole range of things that can be created in between that could be beyond your experience.

  19. Hi Steve,

    in one of your last comments to Dan, you wrote:

    “I’ve met 75% of the people that respond here and you’re the only married responder on this blog as far as I know.”

    I don`t want to come off as a liar, so here is the truth: I am married, too. My husband, just like the office guy, had been working non-stop for the past 3,5 years. He would always say, when project xyz is finished, things will get better and we can spend more time together, but then there was always another project and another one. I never stopped loving the workaholic I had at home, and then I fell in love with another workaholic at the office. Stupid thing to do.

    Office guy`s modus operandi is not aggressive approach, but rather placing the bait and then waiting to see if I take it. And the lonelier I felt in my marriage, the harder it became not to take the bait.

    I initiated “the talk” with office guy when I felt that I would not be able to control the situation much longer. When that was done, I was ready to tell my husband how unhappy I was, and to ask him what he really wanted from life. Had he said that 80 hour work weeks were the way to go and I should just get used to it, I would have left him. Fortunately, it turned out that he was as unhappy as I was. He had been looking for ways to jump off the merry-go-round, because his working style had even begun to have negative effects on his health, he just didn`t know how to do it.

    He is trying to avoid working more than 60 hours per week now, and that has made our life so much better! I still see office guy every day, I get his 2 a.m. or 3 a.m. e-mails, I see the lack of structure in the way he does his work, but I keep telling myself that it is”none of my business, none of my business”, like a mantra, and that works pretty well.

    Marriage has many perks, but unfortunately it does not come with an aura of invulnerability. Dan is right about many things (amazing post, by the way, I thought men like that are about to become extinct), especially about the importance of “work, dedication and perseverance”. And decisions, I might add.

    1. The point is that there are two camps.

      1) Those that date to have a good time.
      2) Those that date to retire and get out of the game.

      An individual is going to align him or herself with a particular camp because of their core beliefs and feelings. Neither side will ever appreciate the other. The good time people will always do their thing regardless of whether they’re in so-called committed relationships or not. The retirees will always see pulling one gal and getting out of the game as the only viable lifestyle.

      There’s no point in arguing over which is the “right” thing to do. The value is in people recognizing that there are people who think exactly opposite from how they do that will pretend to be like them in order to get what they want.

    1. “Happiness is only real when shared.” What philosophy is that from? The Tao of Pooh?

      Dan, I beg to differ. You can’t share happiness and or contentment until you first have it within yourself. If it’s not real there then you have nothing to share. NOTHING. Like an empty wallet.

      “Nothing can bring you happiness but yourself.” – Ralph Waldo Emersom

      “Most people are about as happy as they make up their minds to be” – Abraham Lincoln

      “But what is happiness except the simple harmony between a man and the life he leads?” – Albert Camus

      “Happiness belongs to the self-sufficient” – Aristotle

      “The happiness that is genuinely satisfying is accompanied by the fullest exercise of our faculties and the fullest realization of the world in which we live.” – Bertrand Russell

      “Happiness is when what you think, what you say, and what you do are in harmony.” – Mohandas K. Ghandi

      “There is no duty we so underrate as the duty of being happy. By being happy we sow anonymous benefits upon the world.” – Robert Louis Stevenson

      1. If the end-all-be-all of happiness resided in the self, everyone would be single.

        Even the “player” who is a serial-dater needs companionship to be happy. Hell, the very gist of your blog is primarily based around relationships and companions. So if happiness resides in the self, then what is the reason for entering relationships? Is it just the sex? Nah, anyone can do that without a relationship. Then what is it? Need someone to do the laundry? Cook? Clean? Bear children? No, of course not. It’s a desire for companionship and the allaying of loneliness. If happiness resided in the self, there would be no such thing as loneliness because we would all sprout from the womb with an uncanny sense that happiness is a birthright that no one could take away or that requires anyone other than ourselves to attain.

        Here’s an exercise. For all you single guys out there who insist single is where it’s at and you prefer not to be in relationships and you resist monogamy. All that stuff. Consider the following:

        Are you, would you be, or have you been comfortable with anyone of your sexual partners in the past, present, or future, having sex with other men while you two are “dating”? If yes, then I call bullshit. Because you have a desire for monogamy. What you might have, is a fear of rejection and low self-esteem which prevents you from making a commitment.

        I do agree with your assessment that some men simply are not capable of monogamy. But not a goal? I disagree. Because anyone whose goal is not “monogamy” by definition shouldn’t be dating. Wouldn’t be dating. Because entering into a “partnership” with someone is the very definition of monogamy. It’s not based on length of commitment, it’s just the commitment to one person. And even those who are “just having sex” with a person who do not want that person to have other partners are engaging in monogamy as well.

        Next time something BIG happens. Something you’re real excited about. Don’t tell anyone about it. Don’t share it. I think the happy feeling will be very fleeting.

  20. Players and serial daters are two different things. Go look ’em up yourself. Bro, some folks, male and female hunt for the sake of hunting and that’s what their pleasure comes from.

    “…entering into a ‘partnership’ with someone is the very definition of monogamy” ~ Er, no. It means you will share intimacy and possibly work together to achieve specific set goals. Logically, RATIONALLY, you could have uncommon goals and seek another partner that shares them to help execute. Now you’re in TWO partnerships. Is everybody happy?
    You’re presupposing a lot and making that the basis for your argument.

    “Next time something BIG happens. Something you’re real excited about. Don’t tell anyone about it. Don’t share it. I think the happy feeling will be very fleeting” – That’s a monumentally selfish statement. In order for you to sustain your happiness you need to flap your gums off at someone else? That’s taking, not giving. Have you never seen a tennis game where Serena nails a shot and does that little fist pump of self congratulation? Who is she sharing that with?

  21. Dan – “If the end-all-be-all of happiness resided in the self, everyone would be single. ” – My god man! Are you forgetting your biological drive?

    But that’s just me harping away…

    In an offline discusssion with a buddy that was initially unrelated, we concluded the following: Meeting someone who you can fit with is a matter of luck/coincidence (yes, that’s what Bill is saying, but it didn’t sink in at the time). Much like winning the lottery or playing any other game of chance, even if you know the stats are like 1:100 that doesn’t mean that if you go out and meet 100 women 1 of them will be just right. It’s a probability, not a certainty. You could get just as lucky (or – enjoy as much chance) by standing still as you could by actively seeking. My greatest concern (this is Steve puttin’ his “biz in the street”) is that I would not be in the right mental mode if I was to meet someone that was really worth sticking around for. Turns out I was worried about nothing. When you meet somebody you really click with it’s so surprising that you can’t help but give them 100% of your attention. As opposed to someone your trying to make fit or are otherwise playing around with.

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